[23:01:29] <Kev> right
[23:01:31] <Kev> hi everyone
[23:02:00] <Kev> This is a chance to ask the Psi devs questions about Psi, the roadmap, our future plans, ourselves if you want I guess etc etc
[23:05:52] <Kev> starting out with Brad F from Livejournal:
[23:06:07] <Kev> "When can Psi interoperate with Jingle on all 3 platforms?"
[23:06:41] <Kev> anyone want to answer that?
[23:06:44] <remko> oh
[23:06:44] <remko> :)
[23:06:51] <remko> pick me pick me
[23:07:08] <Kev> go on :)
[23:08:00] <remko> well, libjingle (which is what we're using) currently has suport for linux 'built-in'
[23:08:20] <remko> we have a mac os x patch for libjingle which enables it on mac os x
[23:08:36] <remko> which uses portaudio. I'm planing on making a native Mac OS X audio interface though
[23:08:49] <infiniti> and why not use portaudio?
[23:08:51] <remko> as for windows, we could use portaudio as well in theory, but no one of us ever tried
[23:08:57] <remko> infiniti: it's an extra build dependency
[23:09:12] <remko> infiniti: true, it is not a run-time dependency, which makes it less bad
[23:09:31] <remko> infiniti: the thing with portaudio is that the last version dates several years. I'm not sure if that's good or bad
[23:10:11] <infiniti> i only did a brief investigation of portaudio, but i think the old version might make it good. :) they actually have a proposal system for api changes
[23:10:19] <infiniti> so i suspect they are at some really high maturity stage
[23:10:58] <Kev> it could be
[23:11:25] <infiniti> are there any other hurdles to porting libjingle or is it just the audio hardware stuff?
[23:11:25] <Kev> but as we're only using it on OSX at the moment, where it's least important...
[23:11:55] <Kev> the big problem with windows, our last remaining platform, is that lots of libjingle doesn't compile cleanly with mingw
[23:12:23] <infiniti> finally, can you answer the 'when' in the original question?
[23:12:52] <Kev> we can't do anything until libjingle's more mature
[23:13:00] <Kev> at the moment the spec's still in flux
[23:13:19] <Kev> and the library isn't going to start chasing the spec until that's done I think
[23:13:40] <Kev> we can't "go live" while it implements a considerably older version of the spec though
[23:13:54] <infiniti> makes sense
[23:14:15] <Kev> so the answer is mostly "not yet", but once libjingle itself is more mature (along with the protocol) it'll become a priority
[23:14:30] <Kev> <Fritzy> Is QT4 the only thing holding back the next stable release of Psi?
[23:14:44] <remko> justin ?
[23:14:58] <infiniti> indirectly, yes
[23:15:34] <infiniti> Qt 4 required enough changes that I decided this would also be a good moment to make other changes of our own
[23:16:05] <infiniti> such as refactoring the various subcomponents (namely Iris and QCA)
[23:16:59] <infiniti> they needed to be refactored anyway, but by doing this we can take advantage of the new Qt 4 features
[23:17:08] <remko> so what's the status now ?
[23:17:50] <infiniti> the status is that QCA is still in beta and Iris has a long way to go, at least to achieve the goals I originally set out for
[23:18:17] <remko> infiniti: how about for 0.11 ?
[23:18:27] <infiniti> the plan is that we'll have to cut short some of the planned refactoring, so that we can have a timely 0.11
[23:19:06] <infiniti> aside from the new DNS facilities, Iris will remain mostly the same API-wise
[23:19:23] <Kev> On a related note is that there were rumours of XMPP compliance for Iris (also requiring QCA changes) ready for July, is that still on the cards?
[23:19:26] <infiniti> QCA 2 is pure Qt 4. New Iris code is pure Qt 4, old Iris code requires Qt 3 Support
[23:19:32] <infiniti> and of course Psi still requires Qt 3 support
[23:20:26] <Kev> for people who don't know (everyone I guess) Qt3 support means a compatability part of Qt4
[23:20:32] <Kev> not requiring both library versions
[23:20:41] <infiniti> right, Qt3 support is part of Qt4 :)
[23:21:00] <remko> infiniti: so how about kev's question ?
[23:21:10] <infiniti> regarding compliance, yes. Iris was mostly compliant already, there are just some odds and ends to fix. I'll be resolving these things without a refactor
[23:21:20] <infiniti> so we should see XMPP compliance in 0.11
[23:21:40] <remko> infiniti: and because we have integrated new DNS facilities, this includes SRV
[23:22:06] <infiniti> right, that was the big one. SRV was dropped from Qt 4
[23:22:33] <infiniti> so a big part of the new Iris code is an SRV solution, which we now have
[23:23:40] <remko> on to the next Q
[23:23:47] <Kev> from Machekki:
[23:24:11] <Kev> Remko and Kev use Dvorak keyboard layouts. What about Justin/mblsha?
[23:24:16] <mblsha> s/Machekki/Machekku/
[23:24:39] <remko> :)
[23:24:39] <Kev> heh, yes
[23:24:42] <mblsha> i use standard US-QWERTY/RU-ЙЦУКЕН layouts
[23:24:49] <infiniti> yes, Qwerty
[23:25:46] <Kev> Zenek:
[23:25:52] <Kev> "What's needed to be done before psi 0.11 can be released?"
[23:25:58] <Kev> very related to the last
[23:26:01] <remko> well, we mostly covered that
[23:26:11] <infiniti> btw, regarding the compliance question, I just got a private message asking about SASL
[23:26:12] <Kev> we have to clean up the code we had to change for the Qt4 port
[23:26:16] <remko> #1: Fix all issues in http://psi-im.org/wiki/Qt4_Issues
[23:26:23] <infiniti> I just want to say that yes, we'll have SASL
[23:26:24] <mblsha> i must learn Dvorak keyboard layout, and fix the remaining Qt4_Issues…
[23:26:24] <Kev> then we wait for Qt4, Iris and QCA
[23:26:39] <remko> exactly, mblsha is handling the Qt4 issues mostly
[23:27:04] <remko> i'm going to try and fix some non-Qt4 related issues, and work on integrating justin's XMPP and QCA work into Psi further
[23:27:22] <remko> so that's about it for our plans for 0.11
[23:27:39] <Kev> Fritzy:
[23:27:46] <Kev> How are the different SoC projects coming along?
[23:27:58] <Kev> remko: your students first?
[23:28:00] <remko> ok
[23:28:33] <remko> Nick Vidal, who is working on instant syndicating, has been doing some experiments with PEP first, and w orking himself into the Psi code. He should be getting to the interesting stuff about now.
[23:29:05] <Kev> What's instant syndicating?
[23:29:23] <remko> instant syndicating is kind of like blogging for IM
[23:29:36] <remko> or some call it del.icio.us for IM
[23:29:59] <remko> you publish items into certain categories, and interested parties subscribe to different categories
[23:30:19] <Kev> so you get one of these "Tag clouds"
[23:31:06] <Kev> what about your other project?
[23:31:14] <Kev> s/project/student/
[23:31:25] <remko> Joonas Govenius is working on svg whiteboarding (you know, collaboratively drawing pictures) in Psi. He has been experimenting with a new svg whiteboarding protocol in Psi, and has got some code to test his protocol (a Qt4 program which reads the protocol, and creates the drawing).
[23:31:40] <remko> so he's progressing as well
[23:32:01] <infiniti> what about the protocols for these, are they going to be JEPs?
[23:33:22] <infiniti> :)
[23:33:58] <Kev> Zenek:
[23:34:06] <Kev> Is there going to be some repository for the SoC projects for adventurous people to test?
[23:34:10] <Kev> oh wait
[23:34:15] <Kev> that's only 2/5 projects
[23:34:28] <Kev> I'll answer that one, then go back to the other projects
[23:34:31] <infiniti> haha, and i had a pending question there for remko
[23:34:48] <Kev> my plugins code is in mainline, marked as experimental
[23:35:05] <Kev> I thoroughly recommend you /do not/ compile it though, unless you like pain in large amounts
[23:35:21] <Kev> as for the others: I don't intend managing them, but the students may maintain their own repos
[23:35:34] <Kev> additionally, Google will possibly host the finished codes
[23:35:42] <Kev> sorry, back to Justin and Remko :)
[23:35:58] <infiniti> ok, i'll speak for mine now
[23:36:37] <infiniti> both are in the planning/early stages currently
[23:37:13] <infiniti> Murilo Belluzzo is doing Jingle File Transfer
[23:37:45] <infiniti> this will be based on libjingle, and essentially the point is to use the better NAT-dodging capabilities of jingle to have a higher chance of file transfer success
[23:38:04] <spike> so, no native Jingle implementation in Iris ?
[23:38:20] <infiniti> this way, file transfer and voice should have the same success rate
[23:39:03] <infiniti> spike: we probably would need more than just a summer for that, although we've discussed that possibility. i would like to see our own jingle implementation
[23:39:16] <infiniti> I
[23:39:26] <infiniti> 'm going to try writing an ICE implementation
[23:40:06] <infiniti> and the plan is that Murilo should keep this in mind, so that near the end of the project (or afterwards) we can try to swap out at least the ICE portion of libjingle and his code should still work
[23:40:31] <Kev> sounds good
[23:40:35] <Kev> your other student?
[23:40:39] <infiniti> for the crowd: ICE is the underlying protocol of jingle that handles the connection between peers
[23:40:56] <infiniti> trading IP addresses, routing over a proxy, etc
[23:41:01] <infiniti> jingle is essentially "ICE over XMPP"
[23:41:50] <infiniti> Jason McCandless is working on Link-Local Messaging. this is the LAN messaging protocol that iChat uses
[23:42:31] <infiniti> I believe he is implementing it as a proxy application, so that any Jabber client can connect to it, and then the messages will get relayed to the LAN and back
[23:42:51] <Kev> so a virtual server then?
[23:43:09] <infiniti> so this means it is not only beneficial for Psi. However, he will be using the Iris library to write the proxy
[23:43:31] <infiniti> yes, it will simulate what a normal jabber server does
[23:43:50] <spike> I got disconnected before i was able to talk about my second student. Joonas Govenius is working on whiteboarding (collaborative drawing) in Psi. He has made up a new protocol, and has built a tool which takes the protocol as an input, and draws the drawing.
[23:44:01] <spike> kev, how are plugins going ?
[23:44:13] <infiniti> spike: you'll see it in the logs later :)
[23:44:24] <Kev> plugins are going reasonably well
[23:44:28] <spike> oh ok, sorry if i missed it
[23:44:31] <spike> on to the next one then
[23:44:37] <Kev> we've got a framework for locating plugins and loading them
[23:44:48] <Kev> for loading and unloading them etc
[23:45:18] <spike> we'll have to higher our pace, apparently the questions are running in fast
[23:45:23] <spike> :)
[23:45:25] <Kev> unlike most apps with mods/plugins, with Psi (on lin and osx at least) you won't need to reset to change them
[23:45:33] <Kev> erm, lin and win I mean
[23:45:38] <Kev> osx prevents that, alas
[23:45:47] <Kev> the starts on python scripting are also done
[23:45:57] <Kev> and there are several demoplugins in the works :)
[23:46:07] <Kev> a question from Alok
[23:46:16] <Kev> will we establish target dates in the roadmap?
[23:46:24] <Kev> No, not really
[23:46:38] <Kev> we always hope to have it done soon
[23:46:48] <Kev> and it always is done as soon as possible, and that's about it
[23:47:22] <Kev> another question from the livejournal guys
[23:47:31] <Kev> "LiveJournal wants an easily brandable xmpp client, to not confuse/overwhelm users. Can Psi provide this?"
[23:47:59] <Kev> our options system is currently being overhauled
[23:48:12] <Kev> one of the consequences of this is that it's now much easier to change defaults
[23:48:34] <Kev> defaults can be trivially changed at compile-time by changing an xml file
[23:48:47] <infiniti> I guess it depends on the extent of the branding
[23:48:57] <Kev> we're intending to allow more customisation in the core soon
[23:49:07] <Kev> such that a complete rebranding will be possible
[23:49:40] <Kev> of course, some donation from a company which wishes it rebranded would help that, :)
[23:50:08] <Kev> but we would like people to be able to have a 'simple' custom psi
[23:50:15] <Kev> fixed to one server etc
[23:50:23] <Kev> from Fritzy:
[23:50:29] <Kev> When will we see another Psi stable release, and which features do you imagine will make it into such a release?
[23:50:38] <Kev> Remko can answer this, as he's been on a spree recently
[23:50:50] <spike> a spree which is ending now :-)
[23:51:04] <spike> a part has been answered earlier
[23:52:09] <spike> 0.11 is our next release. The features you can expect are mostly MUC and Remote Controlling. We have our PEP implementation lined up, which brings us goodies like publishing what song you are listening to, avatars, ...
[23:52:47] <spike> however, we are waiting for a server implementation to finalize this. Ejabberd has promised to do this 'soon', and the Wildfire guys are working on it as well with a high priority
[23:53:21] <spike> we tested it with ejabberd, and it looked as if it was working, so let's keep our fingers crossed that it makes it into 0.11 (which depends on Wildfire and/or ejabberd)
[23:54:03] <spike> of course, there are many other features and small new things, but i'm not going to bore you with those, you guys can read the changelog after the release ;-)
[23:54:20] <spike> oh, one more thing
[23:55:08] <spike> we've also implemented roster exchange, which should make it a lot cleaner to register with transports. We all know the trouble it is to do that. We are now waiting for the PyMSN-t implementation to emerge
[23:55:18] <spike> again a feature lined up to be tested
[23:55:22] <Kev> and privacy of course
[23:55:29] <Kev> :)
[23:55:30] <infiniti> although we already talked about compliance, i should say that 0.11 will bring StartTLS, SRV, and SASL
[23:55:34] <infiniti> and that :)
[23:55:38] <spike> yes, we also allow the editing of privacy lists
[23:55:41] <infiniti> and also no more blank error messages
[23:55:44] <infiniti> ("Reason: ")
[23:55:52] <spike> ah yes, another important one, thanks to machekku
[23:56:02] <Kev> another from Alok
[23:56:03] <Kev> I have this slight fear you will implement "theming" which would break the like natural OS UI look, just wondering if you have a thought on if you ever seeing themeing in the future? and if it does happen, still leaving the current ui style.
[23:56:08] <Kev> This won't happen
[23:56:29] <Kev> we've always said that Psi will not be 'skinned', which is what I think you mean
[23:56:30] <mblsha> i've thought of it in the past, and it's really horrible
[23:57:02] <Kev> theming however, which is just allowing users to share those options related to appearance is planned
[23:57:14] <mblsha> but Psi supports loading Qt themes, and there are several cross-platform ones, so non-native look is possible
[23:57:50] <Kev> and there's chance that one day we'll allow adium-style chat themes, along with Google Talk and Kopete
[23:58:12] <Kev> from IceRAM
[23:58:24] <Kev> "Best ways to follow development of 0.11"
[23:58:44] <mblsha> read planet.psi-im.org :)
[23:58:46] <Kev> we've got many ways to follow development at the moment
[23:58:48] <spike> that's the first one
[23:58:48] <Kev> but the best
[23:58:56] <spike> and has the least traffic
[23:58:57] <Kev> is to read http://planet.psi-im.org
[23:59:10] <spike> the second one is to subscribe to the RSS feed of our darcs repository
[23:59:19] <spike> which is higher traffic if i'm awake :p
[23:59:36] <Kev> that's where we blog about the most important things in development
[23:59:55] <mblsha> and here's the jabber-syndicated rss-feed: psi-darcs-mainline@rss.jabber.ru
[00:00:11] <Kev> When we eventually release the new website, we're planning on having an 'under development' section so people can see how we're progressing towards the next release
[00:00:49] <Kev> more questions...
[00:00:52] <Kev> from Skaarj:
[00:00:53] <Kev> as in psi's roadmap, soon psi is going to be nearly fully xmpp-compatible, will have jingle and fully featured availablity of using muc, so we can say that psi is full Xmpp/Jabber client. Many of them surely will be usefull for users, but i think that most of them like entertainment, even in their own communicator (like Psi). So do you plan to implement some kind of games (for example chess, othello, checkers, maybe more board games), like that from tkabber (or better :]), to make psi even better than was said at beggining ?
[00:01:14] <spike> kev, that one is yours
[00:01:41] <Kev> well
[00:01:51] <Kev> I hope for people to implement games as plugins
[00:02:22] <Kev> I think it'd be a great use of plugins and I have to confess that I'd probably use a nice game of xmpp chess too
[00:02:36] <Kev> however serious my IM intentions usually are :)
[00:03:12] <Kev> from Norman
[00:03:20] <Kev> History system revamp? SqlLite ?
[00:03:26] <spike> i'll take that one
[00:04:20] <spike> i have been toying around with Sqlite, making some schema here and there. It certainly is a nice tool, given that it is integrated in Qt by default. I've been contacted by an interested person who wants to do the work
[00:04:34] <spike> i promised to contact him on monday
[00:04:49] <spike> so thanks Norman for reminding me that i have failed to keep my promise
[00:04:57] spike writes down to contact the person
[00:05:48] <Kev> "Some time ago there was a pool about Psi T-Shirts. And news on this topic?" (machekku)
[00:05:52] <Kev> No news at yet
[00:05:57] <Kev> we're waiting for a new logo
[00:06:08] <Kev> and at that point, we'll arrange some merchandise
[00:06:16] <Kev> I personally want a Psi mousemat :)
[00:07:26] <Kev> another from Machekku
[00:07:43] <Kev> possibly controversial as we approach the end of this session :)
[00:07:51] <Kev> Do you think there is a place for standard PubSub in an IM client like Psi? I mean
*only subscriber* use cases (for example, to subscribe and read new blog messages via
ATOM over XMPP)
[00:08:16] <spike> i'm going to go with 'no'
[00:08:32] <spike> knowing that i won't get any people going into a discussion with me. (god i love moderated channels)
[00:08:46] <Kev> this is my opinion also
[00:09:01] <spike> i know it's in a lot of demand
[00:09:06] <Kev> I think PEP is the IM-interesting profile of Pubsub
[00:09:44] <Kev> !jep 163
[00:09:46] <psidekick> Kev: JEP-0163: Personal Eventing via Pubsub:
http://www.jabber.org/jeps/jep-0163.html
[00:09:47] <spike> however, we're going to use the same answer as we do with all the features that we don't want to implement:
[00:09:57] <spike> nothing prevents you from writing a plugin to do it
[00:10:12] <Kev> indeed
[00:10:16] <spike> i think it's a pretty heavy separate project to have a good pubsub reader for the use cases you mention
[00:10:46] <spike> which should be separated as much as possible from the core of Psi as possible, which is an IM client first.
[00:10:53] <Kev> just a last couple of questions thn
[00:10:59] <Kev> from R.H.
[00:11:07] <Kev> If a company was willing to stump up the cash would any of you be interested or in a position to work on Psi/QCA/Isis stuff as a full-time job? (I'm not in a position to offer this, being skint, but perhaps someone who is might see this and be interested!)
[00:11:24] <Kev> I guess this goes to each of us in turn
[00:11:35] <spike> who goes first ?
[00:11:44] <infiniti> i'll go first
[00:12:22] <infiniti> right now SAPO (Portugal Telecom) pays me full time to work on Jabber-related activities, a lot of which goes to QCA and Iris
[00:13:12] <infiniti> (next)
[00:13:28] <Kev> spike:
[00:13:50] <spike> i'm currently finishing my PhD. I'm under a contract by my grant provider to not win any money at this point, which is why i have to turn down any possibility to spend more time on Psi against money. What happens after this is finished (december 2006) is unclear, so who knows, maybe there would be room for me doing some psi at the cost of money.
[00:14:15] <Kev> mblsha: ?
[00:14:17] <spike> i'm leaving it open for the case my first employment plan fails :-)
[00:14:56] <mblsha> i'd be glad to do psi-related work, but preferrably not on full-time basis, but this is negotiatable
[00:15:32] <Kev> that just leaves me then
[00:15:55] <Kev> I've been unfunded since Christmas, trying to finish my PhD and working on Psi
[00:16:24] <Kev> if someone made an interesting offer, there's the possibility of me working on Psi full-time
[00:17:13] <Kev> there are lots of questions about plugins
[00:17:20] <Kev> "will they be in 0.11"?
[00:17:26] <Kev> we don't know, depends when 0.11 is
[00:17:37] <Kev> "how much will they be able to do?"
[00:17:50] <Kev> complete protocol extension I hope, with easy gui through Qt
[00:18:10] <Kev> the intention is addition to Psi, rather than UI modding
[00:18:45] <Kev> and last question for the night, unless the devs have anything else they want to say
[00:18:56] <Kev> Fritzy asks: What can non-programming users do to help Psi development?
[00:19:11] <Kev> well
[00:19:12] <spike> donate RAM to kev
[00:19:14] <spike> oh wait no
[00:19:17] <spike> scratch that
[00:19:33] <Kev> one kind user did exactly that yesterday (received and fitted, thank you)
[00:19:54] <spike> send us thank you notes
[00:19:54] <Kev> such that I can get my old mac mini set back up and make osx nightlies
[00:20:02] <Kev> it's great when people thank us
[00:20:08] <spike> i like pats on the back too
[00:20:12] <Kev> we all do
[00:20:21] <spike> :)
[00:20:27] <Kev> it's also great to get involved in the community
[00:20:34] <Kev> answer questions on the forums, or in here
[00:21:08] <Kev> we currently have two people donating hosting to us (Hal and Fritzy) which is a great help
[00:22:00] <Kev> erm
[00:22:17] <Kev> people could send the devs pizza, we all like pizza ;)
[00:22:31] <mblsha> we like hot pizza better though
[00:22:35] <Kev> true
[00:22:40] <spike> indeed, privmsg me for the toppings i prefer
[00:22:41] <mblsha> i'd prefer restaurant invitations ;)
[00:23:43] <spike> final point on the agenda
[00:23:44] <Kev> there are, of course, larger scale donations, as a company might make, as they have in the past (donations of macs to justin when he had no way of making builds, Qt licenses etc)
[00:23:49] <spike> next meeting date
[00:24:02] <spike> do we meet again ? :)
[00:24:08] <Kev> I think this meeting has been a success, there've been lots of questions certainly
[00:24:14] <spike> more than we can answer
[00:24:22] <Kev> (many of which I have lost or not answered, sorry)
[00:24:27] <Kev> so yes, lets meet again
[00:25:03] <Kev> I guess it would be good to meet again in a couple of months, to coincide with the end of the SoC
[00:25:38] <Kev> so, if the other devs agree, I'll ask you all to keep an eye on the planet or the forums
[00:25:42] <spike> in the meantime, some of us hang around here slacking of course
[00:25:52] <infiniti> yes, sounds good
[00:25:56] <mblsha> +1
[00:26:03] spike is now known as remk0
[00:26:04] <Kev> please hang around and chat less formally, indeed
[00:26:05] <remk0> +1
[00:26:12] <Kev> thanks for the great turnout guys
[00:26:47] <Kev> I make it around 50 people in the list
[00:26:53] remk0 is now known as spike
[00:27:09] <Kev> thanks to the devs for turning up as well, I know midday is many hours before Justin likes to wake up >:)